In response to today's AOTD

"The Jevans" (thejevans1)
08/12/2013 at 23:37 • Filed to: None

https://medium.com/law-of-the-lan…

DISCUSSION (17)

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > The Jevans
08/12/2013 at 23:45

So... if ticket amounts are based on income then the police would have to pay me every time I got stopped?

delete-me-please123 > The Jevans
08/12/2013 at 23:49

Oh my. That article hurts my head soo much. I want to reply with constructive input but I don't think I can at the moment, I just want to hit the author with a brick. Thanks for the post, I might try later. For now, back to the Dodger game.

The Jevans > delete-me-please123
08/12/2013 at 23:56

I am the author, and I would love to hear criticism.

The Jevans > If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent
08/12/2013 at 23:57

A 1:1 relationship was never implied, so tough cookies.

Montalvo > The Jevans
08/13/2013 at 00:16

NOPE. No thank you. I honestly don't see why people keep bringing up the notion of you make more you SHOULD pay more. Speeding is speeding and if two people are going the same speed but one is in a Ferrari and the other a Honda civic, they should have an identical punishment/fine. When people start bringing this stuff up, all it would do is just kneecap progress. It is punishing doing well and that bodes well for no one. If you work hard or get a lucky break and are now doing well financially why should you get beat on more then people who are not trying to better themselves?

delete-me-please123 > The Jevans
08/13/2013 at 00:20

HHahahaha! Oh man, I'm sorry dude. We have far different opinions and in light of my comment, you certainly do deserve my time to respond. I hope you find the egg on my face as humorous as I do and accept my apology. I got a good laugh at myself. I'd like to respond tomorrow when I can take the time for a well thought out reply. Thanks.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > The Jevans
08/13/2013 at 01:07

While more speed does increase the possible damage if a collision occurs, it does not increase the occurrence of collision

False. Studies into the subject show a direct correlation between speed and incident rate.

Nilsson

Kloeden et al.

Brian Tschiegg > Montalvo
08/13/2013 at 08:26

I agree with you. Just to play devil's advocate though, I believe the goal of using a fine system based on income is that it would increase rule of law. The $500 fine for me would hurt my income just as much as the $5,000 ticket for my dad would hurt him; therefore, it would increase the likelihood that people would obey the law, even rich people who could previously afford the cost of speeding.

My problem with that logic is that it ends up just being a revenue maker for the government to fund their road works. The government should not be looking for sources of revenue though. There should be punitive consequences for all drivers who are caught breaking the law multiple times. I'm not just talking about classes and fines either. People who cannot grasp that driving is a dangerous activity that requires care and attention should not be allowed to drive.

The Jevans > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/13/2013 at 09:03

The first study did not show non-support for my statement. The second study is a flawed support for you. It states that the number of casualty crashes increases with speed. It does not state that the number of crashes increases with speed. The amount of total collisions could have been much more correlated with the number of people driving the given speed.

Montalvo > Brian Tschiegg
08/13/2013 at 11:35

well the thing is that is not true. Just because someone makes more doesn't necessarily mean they have cash to burn. A $500 ticket could hurt just as much and lets not forget about the points on your license, that hurts everybody.

Brian Tschiegg > Montalvo
08/13/2013 at 14:49

You're right, but if you make $200k a year, you're a lot more likely to be able to afford a $500 than someone making $28k a year. You could probably also more easily budget higher insurance rates.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > The Jevans
08/13/2013 at 19:27

give me some time to backup my statement with further evidence. Too busy at work to respond.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > The Jevans
08/14/2013 at 02:52

Nilsson found that a change in average speed of 1 km/h will result in a change in accident numbers ranging between 2% for a 120 km/h road and 4% for a 50 km/h road.

the Nilsson report I linked you was the incorrect one (it wasn't even a report, just a commentary), I'm having difficulty finding a web link of the report that directly links speed vs accident link, however the below link is the results of a European Commission study into the subject, they cite Nilsson and Finch's studies into Speed vs Accident Risk:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road…

The Jevans > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/14/2013 at 08:44

That link doesn't work

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > The Jevans
08/14/2013 at 18:52

ha, I'm not having any luck.

I'll try again:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road…

The Jevans > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/14/2013 at 19:57

Thank you. I wish I had access to the studies by Finch and Nilsson. Unfortunately, I must speculate somewhat. Even if the the data is for all accidents, I would have to look at the raw data to see if there is really a difference. I don't know the exact policy to set in place for reckless driving. I know the framework we have is not useful, and needs to be changed. I could probably put together a simple general framework, but I would have to rely on traffic experts for the specific numbers for certain roads, cars, and drivers. According to the summary there is a correlation between speed increase and collision frequency, up to a 5.5% collision frequency increase. This difference is small enough that it could most likely be mitigated with correct reckless driving enforcement, but we cannot know without more available data. If we get the data, we do the study, and the study shows that the speed increase is the cause, then I was wrong and it becomes a debate about what is the acceptable risk level for roads, which becomes a whole other set of problems.

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beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > The Jevans
08/14/2013 at 20:53

the references are all there. If I come across a pdf of the Finch, Nilsson or Kloeden studies it will show pretty solid evidence.

Keep in mind that finding data for non-injury incidents will be difficult, as a lot will go unreported or fully investigated, especially single vehicle incidents.

If you want to skip down to Chapter 5.2 (p51), that's where he starts discussing speed vs risk

"Traffic Safey Dimensions and the Power Model to Describe the Effect of Speed on Safety" Nilsson G, (2004)

The Nilsson and Kloeden reports are what my government mostly use to justify traffic safety, so that's what I'm more familiar with. I'm not gonna sit here and state that I never speed or hoon, I just can't ignore the data. I know I'm being unsafe when I do it.